jmuse
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Long Island
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7/26/2008 10:26:39 AM
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I guess now that it's profitable everyone will be jumping on the bandwagon.
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POLELANE
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Ohio
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7/26/2008 10:13:19 AM
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who voted for them; the chad ?
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goldseeker
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West Virginia
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7/25/2008 12:23:56 PM
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357revo: I hear what you are saying, but there are already other cellulosic ethanol plants that started out small, and have already expanded to larger size plants. One is using forest waste products, and one is using sugar cane bagazze. Both have 1.4 mgpy capacity.
Range fuels has a forest waste plant under construction that will have a startup capacity of 30 mgpy. It is scheduled to begin production next year.
You need to remember that even corn ethanol plants started out small. Some of the earliest plants of over 20 years ago were around 500,000 gallons of capacity.
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CrazyQ
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Washington
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7/25/2008 11:55:54 AM
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Well, Dems have controlled congress for only two years, but check what oil and gas prices have done during that time! Hint - doubled.
But the ban on drilling went into effect during a previous Dem controlled Congress, and the GOP majorities haven't been filibuster proof.
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dinahf
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7/25/2008 10:23:08 AM
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Interesting read Lenguano from Orlando...helped me to understand more about how the markets respond and work. You do however seem to place alot of blame in the Democrats in Congress who have only had control of Congress by a slim margin for a short while now (comparatively speaking).What you fail to mention is that Democrats are blocking some oil development, oil shale extraction, and coal to gas largely because they are trying to steer the country away from its dependence on oil and towards the future of energy, the energy of tommorrow. Alternative fuels, wind power, hydrogen fuel cells, solar power etc, etc.>>> These and others should be the largest part of the energy of the future. OIl and coal have polluted the planet. Theyhave endangered our planet by feeding global warming. We can't go backwards now.
[Edited by: dinahf at 7/25/2008 12:26:10 PM EST]
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357revo
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7/25/2008 10:19:44 AM
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It's probably the scientific ignorance of USA Today's reporters, but "a 250,000 gallon cellulosic ethanol pilot plant" is a meaningless statement about the production capacity of this plant without further explanation.
As stated, this plant is going to cost $140 million in state and research grant funds over 3 years, and it will make a total of 250,000 gallons of ethanol, for an estimated cost of $560 per gallon. This is basic research on developing the biological process for making cellulosic ethanol.
The pilot plant capacity is just a total production number, after which the plant is shut down or scaled up. Pilot plants are designed to be "proof of concept", and the article should have emphasized that. Otherwise, a plant is described by giving its estimated production rate, such as 50,000 gallons per day, or whatever.
This is similar to saying we have an Arctic oil reserve of 90 billion barrels of oil, without mentioning that at full production it can produce 3 billion barrels per year, for the next 30 years, or whatever. Of course, that's only if the Democrats [Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid] permit Congress to vote on allowing us to drill for that oil.
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357revo
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7/25/2008 9:54:39 AM
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rrtr said,
"When I lived in Iowa the government paid us per acre NOT to grow crops.
As they say follow the money and at the end you will find a greedy corporate exec or a corrupt politician."
I'd like to add that the farm program continues to give money to corporate farmers and the politicians who want their votes.
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Lenguado
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7/25/2008 9:13:54 AM
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Ok, JimL1,
I hereby and formally, "dispute that the speculators control the market." That good enough for you?
The PRODUCERS (supply) of the oil "control the market" - and sometimes world events conspire to impact the supply. But the MARKET is CONTROLLED by the SUPPLY. Speculators (traders) can buy and sell their futures all they want, but they PRODUCE NO OIL. That is NOT control – that is a strap-hanger. The speculators/traders are just guessing what the "supply" will be in the future, and are bidding on what they expect the fair market value of the commodity will be when it hits the market – or in the case of oil, when it comes out of the ground.
Futures 'speculators' (traders) - are only buying the right/requirement to purchase the commodity (oil) at a specific price at a specific time in the future - say, 6 months or a year out - with their 5% of the purchase price. If they are still holding (or whoever is holding) that contract at the end of the specified time, they MUST come up with the rest of the money to purchase the oil at that price at that time. It is a legal and binding contract. It works the same with ALL other commodities - rice, beans, pork bellies, frozen concentrated orange juice, oil, natural gas, tomatoes, jalapeño chilies, etc.
Sometimes the speculators/traders guess in their favor (some would call that right). For example - if a trader buys a 1 year oil futures contract at the current market price - say $140/bbl - anticipating a stable supply, but slightly increased demand - thus a slightly higher oil price a year from now. If the speculator/trader guesses right, and due to more world demand or maybe market instability (Iran attacks Saudi Arabia - or there is a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico) that disrupts supply, the price of oil is driven up to say $180/bbl when the futures contract comes due. Thus, their 'speculation' pays off and makes them money in this scenario. They buy the oil at $140/bbl from the supplier (oil drilling company), and then sell it on the open market at $180/bbl, making them $40/bbl. The old 'buy low, sell high' principle. Sometimes, they only make additional pennies or a couple of dollars per barrel of oil, because nothing drove the price much higher than the contract price.
But sometimes EVIL “speculators” guess wrong - against their favor, and they actually loose money. (Yes, speculators/traders LOOSE money too.). Using the above example, the trader buys a 1 year oil futures contract at the current market price - again $140/bbl - anticipating a stable supply, but slightly increased demand - thus a slightly higher oil price a year from now. BUT, this time, instead of increased demand (or some world event that disrupts supply), Congress has passed an unexpected emergency mandate for a crash program to drill in ANWR & in the U.S. coastal areas. And due to the mandate, oil drilling companies have been able to get oil flowing from 10 new oil platforms within 10 months – thus increasing the supply of oil on the world market by 3% (a fantasy, but making an example here) a couple of months before the futures contract comes due. Since there is now more world supply, but with the same world demand, the market price of oil at the time the futures contract is due is $120/bbl instead of the $140/bbl the EVIL “speculator” purchased it at. The speculator is still legally obligated to buy the oil – based on the futures contract – at $140/bbl from the supplier, and must again, come up with the remaining 95% of the futures contract price. If the speculator then sells the oil on the market at the current market price of $120/bbl – because that is all the refineries are paying, he looses $20/bbl. (They could put it in storage hoping to sell it in the future at a higher price, hoping that the price of oil will again go up for some reason. But storage costs money, as does the additional transportation and cost of financing. And if the overall long term trend of oil is more supply, they could really loose their shorts…)
The REAL FUNCTION of the EVIL SPECULATORS is to dampen the cost swings of a particular commodity by guaranteeing the selling price of a commodity – in this case oil – to those who supply it at the time they bring it to the market. This way, the producers – oil drillers, farmers, etc – can make plans such as arranging financing for drilling the oil wells, or for how much or what type of crops to plant. They know what to expect for their costs and their profits.
If there were NO speculation, the producers would have no idea what the price of their commodity would be at the time they bring it to the market in the future (hence the term ‘futures market’) – 6 months, 1 year, 2 years from now. This significantly increases their risk, and thus makes them less inclined to make the investment of the effort to drill for the oil or plant their crops. Without the futures speculators, the market for commodities would swing wildly from limited supply to extreme oversupply – with the associated wild swings from exorbitant prices (massive profits for the suppliers) if there is limited supply; to some commodities being extremely low cost because they were massively overproduced, possibly causing the suppliers (oil companies, farmers, etc) to go out of business because of bankruptcy.
The simple bottom line is that the speculators are only guessing on what the future supply of an item will be, and guessing at the price it will command. They could be right on and nail it and maybe make a few bucks, wrong with there being a lower supply (or higher demand) than expected and make big money, or wrong with there being a higher supply (or lower demand) and loose gobs of money. But it is all based on what the actual supply is.
If supply is artificially restricted – as in the case of oil – with out great Democratic controlled Congress blocking the drilling of oil in ANWR and off our coasts, blocking oil sands / shale production, & blocking coal to oil gasification, supply is still restricted, while demand is growing – the price of oil in the future will go up. IF ANYONE IS RESPONSIBLE for higher oil futures prices (and thus the price of gas at the pump) – it is the DEMOCRATS in Congress. The speculators are just expecting that the DEMOCRATS in Congress will continue keeping the supply of oil artificially low, while world demand increases. The speculators are not driving the price of oil, the DEMOCRAT Congress is!!!!!! Regardless of the speculators, the supply of oil a year from now will still be restricted.
So, JimL1 – who is the one lacking knowledge????? And how is it again, that the speculators are driving the market and the price of oil?
[Edited by: Lenguado at 7/25/2008 11:18:05 AM EST]
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RochBear
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Minnesota
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7/25/2008 8:58:37 AM
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We need ALL sources of energy, but what is most important is this, IF we drill for more oil, we not do like we have since 1973, and just relay on more and more oil. We MUST continue to create alternatives. I am in favor of Celulose Ethonal, but I think there are better things than a gasoline substitute.
We need to really improve our solar cells to be more efficient. We need to harnass more wind generation. We really need to develope economical hydrogen fuel cells.
Not one thing is going to fix the problem we are in. That is a big part of the problem, there is ONE source of Energy now. (oil) We need at least 3 different types of Energy, that way if one gets cut off, runs out, or gets too expensive, people can simply switch to one of the others.
Here is what I see as the best of the future. Electricity made from Solar/wind/tidal/GeoThermal. This electricity (all clean forms, and 100% renewable) would be used to A) Charge batteries in Electric Vehicals, B) used to make Hydrogen fuel. The cars of the future would have batteries to do Local commuting. But would also contain a hydrogen fuel cell to generate electricity when a longer trip is needed. The Filling stations would offer both Hydrogen fuel, and Rapid Battery recharges. But every house would have either(or both) solar panels, and windmill.
Now that we know what the future will be, let's all work on what we need to get there. I could see all this being "normal" in 10 years. But we must start now to get there.
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ss70
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Detroit
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7/25/2008 8:55:58 AM
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way to go ... convert all the trash that is going to landfills.... even if ethanol is giving less milage i really dontmind if it is coming from trash
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Mahalo98
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Georgia
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:46:21 AM
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New CO2 Scrubber Opposed by Environmentalists (VIDEO !!!)
Scientists at Columbia University are developing a carbon dioxide (CO2) scrubber device that removes one ton of CO2 from the air every day, says the Heartland Institute
http://wordpress.com/tag/carbon-eater/
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bauerboy
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Seattle
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:40:45 AM
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Another "Back to the Future" fix.
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copperhead8
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Boston
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:39:56 AM
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We can't wait forever.
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dls_txxs_grl
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Dallas
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:34:59 AM
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2012 great...lol
j
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armstrmb
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Houston
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:33:23 AM
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The more competition from more energy sources that are not already over-used, the better.
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SUNLVR
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Phoenix
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7/25/2008 8:32:35 AM
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IF YOU WANT TO READ A GOOD ONE, CHECK OUT Lenguado'S MESSAGE POSTED BELOW! GOOD MAN!
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DarthDadJr
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Virginia
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:32:34 AM
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Lenguado makes many good points...but is off on how long it takes to start drilling for oil. He says it will only takes 1-2 years...that is after you have completed the whole process of exploration, building the rigs, infrastructure to move the oil, etc. And don't forget all the paperwork that has to be completed and filed before you do anything! In the end, it will take 10 years to bring ANWR and new off-shore areas into full production. But he is right...we need to do everything -- alternate sources and conservation and new oil production.
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Bannack
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Florida
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:29:10 AM
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Ok.... progress.
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Kimberpacker45
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Indianapolis
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:24:51 AM
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Somis1, Best idea I have heard yet !!!
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Sabredude
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New York
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7/25/2008 8:24:25 AM
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corn is for eating!
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SUNLVR
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Phoenix
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7/25/2008 8:24:22 AM
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You just can't beat oil/gasoline as an economical, compact fuel source (especially considering that the climate change scare is bogus because mankind does not cause macro climate change).
As the AP/USA Today article states, "The cost of producing cellulosic ethanol is still much higher than making corn-based ethanol."
DRILL HERE, DRILL NOW, PAY LESS!
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Kimberpacker45
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Indianapolis
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:23:02 AM
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Just look at a box of cereal. Where has all the corn gone??
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tbybee
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Omaha
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7/25/2008 8:18:31 AM
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Nebraska has a plant that processes corn into fructose syrup and other products. They added an ethanol production facility to handle the raw material that gets spilled, contaminated or is otherwise unusable for food. This seems the right thing to do -- use food for food first and if it can't be used for food, make it into fuel.
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rrtr
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San Jose
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:18:18 AM
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any negative press generated about ethanol is drummed up by our friends in the oil business. The byproduct of corn ethanol is indeed food for cows look into it if you doubt me.
When I lived in Iowa the government paid us per acre NOT to grow crops.
As they say follow the money and at the end you will find a greedy corporate exec or a corrupt politician.
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MiddletownMarty
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Connecticut
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7/25/2008 8:17:55 AM
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Ha! You are so right!
And don't forget biowaste (Congress).
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amacquarrie
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Nevada
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:17:29 AM
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... but it's a step in the right direction
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s6sputnik
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Austin
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:17:18 AM
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Wonder if they'll eat Danish every morning?
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Somis1
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Ventura
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7/25/2008 8:16:45 AM
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An ethanol plant in D.C., fueled by paper and hot air, would run forever!
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dreamweaver7050
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Louisiana
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:16:42 AM
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do it getter done
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WillyG
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7/25/2008 8:12:58 AM
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Let's get going with these alternative fuels already. I wanna see those arabs ,OPEC, and those speculators choke on their oil. . .
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EPA_Regs2Blame
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7/25/2008 8:11:31 AM
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Better than using food the cows would like to eat.
Maybe a good use for recycled newspapers...although, don't we send a bunch of waste paper to China? (and I'm not referring to the U.S. Dollar)
It sure get's hot in them Tennessee hills. Maybe the heat will help the bugs grow.
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Rajah
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Illinois
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 8:10:39 AM
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Agree with Lenguado below.. It's not one single approach, it has to be a combination. Just like in investing, don't put all your eggs in one basket.
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coolpado
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Virginia
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7/25/2008 8:10:17 AM
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Interesting
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JB1881
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7/25/2008 8:09:46 AM
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As long as they don't use FOOD PRODUCTS to make Ethanol that should be OK.
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Wolfwings
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Delaware
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7/25/2008 8:08:55 AM
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Hopefully, the ethanol will be generated from something other that a viable food product.
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Dennis783
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Wisconsin
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7/25/2008 8:08:53 AM
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go for it
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drb61
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Twin Cities
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7/25/2008 8:08:16 AM
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T. Boone is a liar. He is IN IT FOR THE MONEY. He has a fortune to gain by BSing a Democrat controlled Congress. He feeds them with what they want to hear - not what is good for America. He will laugh all the way to the bank with the taxpayer's billions.
Reid an Pelosi fall lock-step behind him too.
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gasie1
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Maine
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7/25/2008 8:06:16 AM
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Interesting. Hope it works better than using food crops.
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Brn2bEvl
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 7:57:15 AM
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So
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EXTREMESNOW
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Oregon
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7/25/2008 7:53:53 AM
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INTERESTING...
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RCinNM
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New Mexico
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 7:51:12 AM
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Really. I hope it works.
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AC-302
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Los Angeles
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7/25/2008 7:51:03 AM
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Lenguado said: "- Research the coal to oil gasification process."
--Already been done. BP has a patent on this. Eastman Chemical uses this process to make chemcials from coal. And a factory in Beuhla, ND uses coal gas to make refrigeration-grade ammonia.
What I think is ironic is that they chose to put the cellulosic ethanol plant smack dab in the middle of the moonshine capitol of America!
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HockeyLady
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New Jersey
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 7:48:27 AM
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let's hope it works!
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RF4CPhantom
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Oklahoma City
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 7:45:03 AM
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Very interesting~!
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Lenguado
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7/25/2008 7:43:04 AM
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Cellulostic Ethanol is good - but how long before any of it is available in more than a raindrop's worth in relation to that needed for our energy dependent economy?!?!?! 10 years? 15 years? 20 years?
I fully and wholeheartedly support using as much solar power as we can? But how long before photovoltaic cells get to the needed 30% - 50% efficiency needed before they are truly practical (as opposed to the current 10%-15%)? 10 years? 15 years? 20 years?
The left-wingnuts and enviro-terrorists spout that if we start drilling now, it will be 10 years before we get the oil. Though this is a complete LIE and FABRICATION made up and repeated by our Democratic controlled Congress leaders Nancy Reid and Harry Pelosi - to demagog the folks really trying to solve this energy problem - so they can win the election. The truth is that if we start drilling now - we will have oil flowing within 1 - 2 years. And for those blaming the speculators, what will happen to the price of oil futures when they determine that there will actually be MORE SUPPLY than LESS SUPPLY - as they presume now? Oil prices will fall, and fall, and fall, and fall.....
And for the numnuts who say that more oil will NOT bring down the price of gas, why is Nancy Reid calling for Saudi Arabia to drill / pump more oil? Why is Harry Pelosi calling for Bush to release oil from the National Strategic Petrolium Reserve (idiotic idea by the way - since she is calling for the release of about 1 hours worth of oil...)? If increased supply won't bring down the price of gas, why call for more production by other folks.
And we know how much the American people love congress right now - right? Congress approval rating 9% - the HATED G.W.Bush approval raging - 23%. Things that make you go, Hmmmmm.
The real solution is ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!
- Conserve as much as possible (hybrid cars - great, as long as they do the job we want and are economically reasonable), insulate your homes better, etc.
- Research alternative forms of energy, and let the MARKET bring the most efficient and cost effective ones to the forefront. If the govt is mandating it, it is most likely the wrong solution - the one that the evil Political Action Committees are pushing.
Let's research, cellulosic ethanol, sugar cane ethanol (from Brazil?), remove the tariff's from imported ethanol, solar cells, wind generation, hydrogen cells, fuel cells - - ALL of them!!!
- Build some more nuclear power plants.
- In the meantime, drill for the readily available oil in ANWR, off the coast. Mine the oil shale.
- Research the coal to oil gasification process.
But following a sane energy policy is much to logical for our Congress - and most people. It must be a political battle for the control of the people. Forget freedom.
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10pennypincher
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St. Louis
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 7:40:27 AM
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A better idea is to use electric cars and get the electricity from solar, wind, and nuclear sources.
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edgarbrn
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Charleston
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 7:39:26 AM
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Sounds good.
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MG_Sputnik
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Philadelphia
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7/25/2008 7:39:09 AM
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Yes, but what are the long term benefits, if any?
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The_WB
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Posts:4,109
Points:444,250
Joined:Apr 2007
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 7:39:07 AM
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Ignore The_WB Report Abuse
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It is not the answer
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unclebobMO
Veteran Author
Missouri
Posts:258
Points:130,545
Joined:Mar 2008
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Message Posted:
7/25/2008 7:38:27 AM
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Ignore unclebobMO Report Abuse
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The more we make the more we manage the cost for all fuels.
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